The New SteveSilver.net

"Excommunicated" may be too easy. If one of my friends did this, I'd consider a mercy killing.

guys like that should just walk down the aisle in a doug christie jersey. it's over for them.

One thing Roiphe doesn't talk about is the phenomenon of married couples taking their spouse's surname as a middle name, e.g. when Jennifer Granholm married Dan Mulhern she became "Jennifer Mulhern Granholm" and he became "Daniel Granholm Mulhern." Not as bad as hyphenation, but still strikes me as a bit odd.

On the "making up a new last name" bit, I recall that failed LA mayoral candidate Antonio Villaraigosa did this (his name was Villar, his wife's name was Raigosa) and I wonder whether it didn't hurt him with his Latino constituents b/c it undoubtedly made him appear less macho.

I'm also curious how same-sex marriage will impact the maiden name phenom - I've yet to hear of a same-sex couple that went for hyphenation, and I've only heard of a few where one partner adopted the other's surname (e.g. the Goodridge plaintiffs). The real issue is still the kids: I generally share Steve's anti-hyphenation views, but if two guys (or two gals) got married and had children, they'd probably be better off giving the kids a hyphenated moniker rather than duking it out over which of their surnames would be passed on to the next generation.

Yeah, I hate the hyphenated phenomenon as well.

However, guys - put yourself in the female's shoes and imagine giving up your name. Just try to picture it.

I'm not all feminist about this, it's just that my name is my name, it's my connection to my ancestors, my family, it's who I am, and I will never take my husband's name because of that.

However, I don't care if my kids have my name or his. I would not subject them to a hyphenated situation, or to some kind of morphing of our two names. All I have to say to that is ICK.

It's also worth noting that the assumption that women take the surnames of their spouses is no longer as legally embedded as it once was. The civil code of Quebec (and probably laws in other jurisdictions as well, but the Quebec example is the one I'm most familiar with on point) provides that married women retain their maiden name unless they follow specific legal procedures to take the name of their husband - in practice, these procedures are rather complicated, and most women avoid the hassle by retaining their maiden names.

For my part, I'm sympathetic to Sheila's concerns and would not object if my wife wanted to retain her maiden name; there's no way I would adopt her name, so in fairness I wouldn't force her to adopt mine either. There should be some set norm as far as the surnames of children go, and I'm perfectly content to have children assume their father's surname unless conditions dictate otherwise. The point I was raising above, however, is this: what should be done in a situation where a child has two fathers (or two mothers)? If you rule out hyphenation, which parent's surname should be used? This presents a philosophical problem in terms of our conception of same-sex unions, inasmuch as it frustrates efforts to move toward a gender-neutral "spouse/spouse" paradigm instead of a gendered "husband/wife" one - questions such as whose surname passes on to their children are very much rooted in the old conceptions of "husband" and "wife." That's why I suggested hyphenated surnames for children of same-sex couples - it's an imperfect make-do solution to the problem, but any solution is better than none. However, for my part as a heterosexual I can see no reason to subject children raised in a traditional marriage to the trauma of having a hyphenated name.

There was a guy at my high school reunion who had taken his wife's name, and I remember the sort of ripples of "wow, that guy is pussy-whipped" which went through the reception hall. I was one of those people who looked at the couple thinking: Man, she's got him whipped.

Later, I felt bad for thinking that, because of my own stance on keeping my own last name.

Why was that guy WHIPPED when he took his wife's last name, and why is it normal for women to submerge their own last names underneath their husbands?

Sheila,

Women have been taking their husbands name for a thousand years, I know that doesn't make it right, but it's far more unusual for a man to take his wife's name.

I wouldn't mind if my wife wouldn't take my name, since in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter much. However, as the last male of my grandfather's line, it would be important to me that any children hold my name.

Specifically, regarding your name..."O'Malley" wouldn't hyphenate well with anything. Most last names with two or more syllables wouldn't either.

Bill -

A lot of customs have gone on for 1000 years without being questioned, and that don't make it right or doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged.

I don't like the double standard, wherever it turns up.

I understand what you're saying, but the same gut reaction to a guy taking his wife's name would remain. If any of my friends were to do such a thing, I know I wouldn't want to be him when the guys get together.

Pete even takes some ribbing from time to time, as the priest accidentally announced the newly married couple by her name.

All I'm asking, Bill, is that you acknowledge the double standard in your remarks.

There is a double standard, since a woman is expected to do what few men would even consider.

Bill--for 1000s of years before children started to take their fathers' names, children were known by who their mother was. If you think about it, you only have your wife's word that any child of hers is yours. It's much less difficult to doubt the maternity of a child. So does the man force his name upon his children in an attempt to prove to his friends (who might think he was more pussy whipped than "George") that he controls his wife's reproduction? Or does his wife allow her children to take the name of her husband to show her friends that he has her favor (to the point that she acknoweledges him as her children's father)?

red--I agree whole-heartedly that we need, on occasion, to stop & look at things we consider "normal" and wonder why that is the case. Maybe it's time for another name revolution.